R.J.Green-SE1@cs.bham.ac.uk (Robin J Green) writes:
I believe that all youth cultures die, even if it does take 10-20 years.

The aspects of a culture that rely on "youth" may seem to die because most people tend to grow old. But typically, whatever it is about a culture that is associated with youthfulness tends to reemerge in other youth movements. The aspects of Rave culture that are independent of youthfullness will continue to evolve and persist.

The 60's had a more 'cosmic' view of harmony between people and the world,

This theme continues to persist in various forms: new age spirituality, the resurgance of shamanisn, cosmological theories associated with Quantum Physics. We don't really think of many of the current incarnations of 60's themes as 60's themes anymore because the scope of many "60's" concepts transcended that era and the fashions of that time.

The 70's Punk Generation was hooked on nihilism and shock.

One important punk theme was the DIY philosophy of music making - any punk could pick up a guitar and form a viable band. The breakdown of the wall between performer and audience was an important contribution that persists within the Rave scene. The flattening of the human ego hierarchy is an extremely important concept.

All youth cultures seek individualistic expressions removed from the experiences of the previous generation.

Ironically, this point is what has made all youth cultures similar to the experiences of the previous generation. The persistance of the Rave culture will largely depend on it's ability to break out of this pattern of rejection, of *trying* so hard to be new. Just like house music that samples oldies, the revolutionary aspect of Rave culture (IMO) is the degree to which it embraces certain themes that have come before it, and lie beyond it.

Rave took off in 1990 as a major issue, due to free parties, Ecstasy and BIG events. All exclusionist of the older generation. (Not that we sneer at 30somethings dancing at raves, we welcome them, it's the percieved image of the older generation we are rebelling against.)

New movements sometimes require the energy of youth and new drugs to get launched. But the success and sustenance of raving will depend on its continuing relevency to the human experience, irregardless of the age of its participants. If the idealogical tenets of raving prove to be applicable beyond the youthful desire to have fun and be "different", then raving will be around for some time. Otherwise, some of the more universal characteristics of this subculture will be absorbed and regurgitated by the ever-evolving culture-at-large.

Lee

From: R.J.Green-SE1@cs.bham.ac.uk (Robin J Green)
Subject: Re: Ideological Foundations

Lee Fogel wrote:
new age spirituality, the resurgance of shamanisn, cosmological theories associated with Quantum Physics.

Also, the idea that an event should influence people metaphysically, outside of the religious sphere. In actual effect, this is the creation of a non-directed 'spirituality' or religion without theological foundation or unified expression. Do you 'worship' at a rave? And if you find that you do, what are you worshipping? Yourself? The collective? The music? The event? Or something deeper like 'spiritual connectedness', synergy or human-human communication? Are these issues worth 'worship'?

The breakdown of the wall between performer and audience was an important contribution that persists within the Rave scene. The flattening of the human ego hierarchy is an extremely important concept.

I absolutely agree with you. The destriction of ego, the deification of content over personality. All centered around cheap music hardware and energy.

the revolutionary aspect of Rave culture (IMO) is the degree to which it embraces certain themes that have come before it, and lie beyond it.

Again, it may have retro influences, but they have been moulded, changed and re-evaluated in a 90's format, with emphasis not on the spirituality or 'cosmicness' of the experience, rather the materialistic, here+now experience of science and technology. It goes out of it's way to avoid touting it's devotional and 'spiritual worship' feelings IMO.

...the success and sustenance of raving will depend on its continuing relevency to the human experience, irregardless of the age of its participants.

Relevance to the human experience is debatable. The experience of a rave grew out of dissatisfaction with the outside world, so an enclosed space was created, a space where people could be nice to each other without incurring suspicion or violent reactions. THIS is the secret of raving, that it is a safe artificial environment, which is why nothing else in life is so powerful an experience, why raving can be addictive. This artificiality is a criticism I find coming from other youth cultures - the indie kids, the metal heads. They can't understand why this artificial music, devoid of human contact is so compulsive, why events where all they see are kids in expensive clothes taking too many drugs and wearing expensive shoes, why these events are so popular. This is why being initated into raving is such an eye-opener. But it is an artificial community, an artificial experience, a hyper-real experience that is so removed from reality, nothing can replace it. This may either sustain it or kill it eventually...

- Robin Green.

Robin asks:
Do you 'worship' at a rave? And if you find that you do, what are you worshipping?

I think you're on to something here, I don't really agree that there's much worshipping going on. The flavors of spirituality and connectedness that take place seem to be very experiential and immediate. The term "worship" denotes (to me) a separation between worshipper and the object of worship. What happens at raves, besides some DJ worshipping that takes place, is a Oneness/Now kind of thing.

Relevance to the human experience is debatable.

Hmm. I suppose you're right if we define the human experience to be the common state of the typically brainwashed, preprogrammed mainstream human. What I was thinking of is how raving addresses the more basic feelings and essence of what we are beneath the shallow surface of what people usually become.

But it is an artificial community, an artificial experience, a hyper-real experience that is so removed from reality, nothing can replace it.

I understand your point, but I would say that, like a microscope, aspects of a rave may focus our attention on aspects of ourselves that are more fundamentally real that what we see on the surface of everyday life. I don't want to argue over the semantics of "what is reality?", but I know many people who feel that how we are at raves represents a truer nature in us than how society has moulded us to be. The rave experience can be very real, and that same experience can be very contrived - it varies from person to person, and a lot depends on how much of youself (the one you've been programmed to be) you can let go of (as opposed to just painting over it with another facade).

Someone else mentioned the concept of being able to recreate ourselves at will. If we can do this, then there really is no self other than what we choose to be at any given moment. Many people at raves finally get to be what they would *want* to be if they really had the choice, and this could possibly be seen (or felt) as being more real than how the rest of the world has trained us to be.

Lee